Guys,
After reading Whiskey’s post and the comments, here are my thoughts on what will happen. I don’t think gun owners will resist en masse; I think that they’ll meekly go along for the most part.
One the character of America now vs 1775 (Lexington & Concord) is greater than the difference between night and day. Lexington & Concord were sparked by a British attempt to seize weapons from the colonists. Modern day Lexington & Concord, Massachusetts are enclaves of white, liberal elitism now. Another thing to consider is that we put up with ten times more gov’t abuse than the colonists ever did! Do you think they would go along with a gov’t telling them what kind of light bulbs they could buy? Do you think the colonists would tolerate a government telling them what toilets they could have in their homes? No, they would not; however, we see Americans meekly going along with this rampant gov’t intrusion without so much as a whimper.
Secondly, gun owners have, for decades, tolerated assaults on the Second Amendment, and they have done so with little or no opposition. They didn’t dig in their heels when the Sullivan gun law was passed in NY in 1911; they didn’t object to the Firearms Act of 1934, which prohibited fully automatic weapons; they didn’t protest the Gun Control Act of 1968; gun owners didn’t vigorously protest a multitude of other infringements on the Second Amendment over the years. Do you really think that they’ll object to registration? Do you really think that they’ll object to the gov’t confiscating their guns? I don’t.
At this point, I’ll interject a personal story, since I recently tried to buy a gun. I went to a local gun shop, filled out the forms, and they did the check. It was denied, I suspect, because of a false accusation of domestic violence from years ago. I don’t even think about that most days; it’s not something I think about during my daily life, but it’s come back to haunt me. Well, since I can’t guy a gun from a shop, I’ve gone about trying to procure one privately. One avenue I tried was armslist.com.
I tried procuring a rifle, since they’re not, according to my local state law, subject to mandatory transfer at a firearms dealer. In my state, when one buys a handgun, whether from a shop or private dealer, one has to have the background check done; one has to go through an FFL to transfer a handgun. When one buys a rifle or shotgun (a ‘long arm’), one does not; you can buy a rifle or shotgun the same as you would a car: hand over the cash, take the merchandise, and you're done. Well, the one guy I contacted on Armslist would not agree to doing a straight up, private transfer of ownership; he was adamant about going to the dealer to have it done, even though local state law does not REQUIRE him to do so. Even if I were an ATF or state agent, I couldn’t have nailed the guy for anything, because doing a private transfer of a rifle is legal where I live. It struck me as a fearful, submissive attitude.
I’ll give you another example. I know a guy (who’s a conservative who owns his own contracting business) who’s into guns. I asked him about going outside legal channels to own a gun. I explained to him that, after gun owners in NY State were outed by a local newspaper recently, I didn’t want a record because I don’t want the same thing happening to me. A few of those folks have already been robbed, thanks to the NY Journal-News map. Secondly, it’s none of the government’s BUSINESS whether or not I own a gun! Thirdly, after studying the Second Amendment and its history (mainly what the Founding Fathers said about it), it’s my understanding that any FREE MAN is allowed to keep and bear arms-end of story; anything that gets in the way of that is an infringement on the Second Amendment. That means that the Gun Control Act of 1968, which first prohibited convicted felons from owning guns, is an infringement on the Second Amendment. If they’ve served their time and have been released, they’re free men, are they not? So, isn’t the prohibition of convicted, but released, felons (who are now FREE MEN) an INFRINGEMENT on the Second Amendment? Finally, since the Constitution is SUPPOSED to trump all; since it’s supposed to trump all laws made; we’re not obligated to obey them, because they infringe on a key amendment of our Bill of Rights. IOW, the Second Amendment gives all free men the right to keep & bear arms-simple as that.
Anyway, this contractor I know (who I’ll call Dan, not his real name) got all concerned, saying that what I was wanting to do (try to buy a gun on the black market) was a felony, that I could go to jail, etc. He said that, even though he knew things about getting guns outside of official channels, he would not tell me. His attitude was fearful and submissive, or so I thought. If he’s an example of your typical gun owner (and I believe he is), then I don’t expect our gun owners to put up much of a fight for when the gov’t does come to take away Americans’ guns. They can cry ‘molon labe’ all they want; they can talk about gov’t officials prying their guns from their cold, dead fingers; when push comes to shove, they’ll turn in their guns like the good, little sheep that they are.
One particularly dangerous piece of legislation that gun owners and the NRA went along with was the Brady Law; that law first instituted the waiting period, followed by the instant background checks. This is bad, because it amounts to prospective gun owners, in effect, asking PERMISSION from a gov’t bureaucrat to exercise what is their right; oh, please, please, please let me have my rights, Massa! The sad part is that gun owners and the NRA went along with this, thinking that they’d won a victory back in the 1990s; it was anything but! The Brady Law, in effect, turned our Second Amendment rights into a privilege. If we have to ask permission to do anything, then it is not a right-end of story. The Brady Law did more than anything else to gut the Second Amendment.
Before I close this out, let’s look at how most gun owners talk these
days; let’s look at how they’ve adopted the language and terminology of
the left, shall we? When listening to the conservative pundits (Rush,
Hannity, and Levin); when reading these discussions here and elsewhere;
many talk about how they’re ‘legal gun owners’. Stop and THINK about
that for a minute. In effect, they’re saying that they’ve jumped
through all the government’s hoops (read restrictions, which are BS);
that they’ve gotten permission from the authorities; and that they’ve
now been allowed to own their guns. Stop and think about that! The
very fact that most gun owners talk like that means that they’ve bought
in to the numerous infringements on the Second Amendment; it means that
they’re okay with said infringements; finally, it means that they won’t
OBJECT to further restrictions on their Second Amendment rights. Why?
Because they’re good, little, ‘legal gun owners’, that’s why! If
they’ve already bought into surrendering the Second Amendment (and they
have, because they anxiously seek permission from ‘the authorities’-a
fine, totalitarian phrase), then why would the fight and die for their
right? How can they when they’ve already SURRENDERED that right? As
I’ve stated above, when you have to seek permission to do something, it
is no longer a right; at that point, it becomes nothing more than a
privilege.
In closing, since gun owners have gone along with the already numerous infringements on the Second Amendment; since gun owners have done so for years; since they’ve done so with nary a whimper; I don’t expect gun owners in America to resist en masse. They can cry 'molon labe' all they want, but they don't really MEAN it. They may hide their guns, but they won't point them at gov't agents in an open act of defiance. Those gun owners who I have personally encountered as of late are fearful of the gov’t; they’re fearful to the point of being submissive. Since gun owners went along with the Brady Law with little or no protest; since they ACQUIESCED to basically asking permission from gov’t officials to buy guns; they will NOT stand firm and die for their right to own guns. No, when the gov’t comes for our guns (and make no mistake about it, that IS their ultimate aim), most gun owners will meekly turn in their weapons, and our subjugation will be complete.
MarkyMark
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20 comments:
Maybe they have gone along in the past but everyone sees where this is going now. People don't have a choice to ignore this anymore. Unless you want to be robbed and killed you better get your hands on a weapon and defend yourself from the police, military and anyone else that will be coming at you.
I have trouble taking this very seriously. You say that you may buy a long gun legally in your state but have not found anyone yet willing to sell? Have you tried the ads in your local newspaper?
OTOH, the thing to remember is that legal gun owning folks in most parts of this country identify strongly with Law Enforcement and therefore their dislike of selling to a person with any kind of "record" is actually heart felt and not because of paranoia.
You are basically right with a caveat.
Most of the "rebels" assume a 95-97% compliance or passive resistance rate.
If say 5% choose to react with aggression and use the methods being discussed , the current political class will be in big trouble.
5 of 100 million gun owners is enough to create a complete social collapse and essentially eliminate the current state of affairs,
Worse there are a great many opportunists ready and willing to become a bigger fish in a smaller pond.
Anon1937,
I haven't tried the local papers yet; that's a good idea. Now, I'd like to discuss something you said: about 'legal' gun owners. I have trouble with that phrase, not you personally.
I hear the conservative pundits (most notably Mark Levin) and their listeners talk about how they are 'legal' gun owners. Lately, that phrase has bothered me, and I'll tell you why: being 'legal' connotes seeking gov't permission; it means that our Second Amendment right is no longer a right, but a privilege. We don't talk about being a 'legal' owner of any other product or commodity, do we? Even of dangerous things like cars (#1 killer of Americans 44 and younger, BTW!), chain saws, common tools (e.g. hammers, which killed more people in American than rifles), or anything else, do we? We don't speak of being a 'legal' chain saw owners, do we? Do we speak of being 'legal' car owners, even though we need license and register them, even though they are MORE dangerous than guns? Just look at the LANGUAGE we're using here!
As for identifying with law enforcement, I no longer do. When I was falsely accused back in 1998, I didn't care for how I was treated, especially by the one cop; my late mother and I called him 'Storm Trooper', because he was reminiscent of what you'd have found in Hitler's Brown Shirts. I hope you some day get falsely accused, so YOU can experience what cops are really like! The whole episode changed my opinion of the system: gov't, the laws, courts, everything. Now, I view all those entities as potential enemies; I used to view them as noble public servants who truly wanted to help-no more!
Years ago, the cops were good guys who truly wanted to help people. Now, they're Nazi wannabes in terms of demeanor and intelligence, or lack thereof. I remember how, back in the late 90s, a police candidate was turned down because he was TOO smart; IOW, he thought for himself, and that's no longer desirable in cops these days. There has been a decided change in the type of men who are cops nowadays, no question about it.
I would urge you to spend a few hours on Gun Owners of America's website, and do some reading on the Brady Law, the Lautenberg Amendment, and stuff like that. They also have links to quote of the Founding Fathers; basically, they thought that ANY FREE MAN should have the right to keep & bear arms! With the passage and implementation of the Brady Law, our right has been reduced to a privilege.
I could say more, but I have a video I want to watch, then I want to go skating. Have a good night...
MarkyMark
MarkyMark, allow me to ask the elephant-in-the-room question.
You say that the character of Americans has changed, and to a large extent I agree with you. You say that average gun owners have become sheeple that will comply with all laws and regulations and turn over their guns if so pressed by the guv'ment.
So my question is, will you also comply? Will you make a stand against seizure? A violent stand if necessary? Will you band together with others and resist?
If yes, then why are you trying to buy a gun.
If no, then you are a good example of the fact that there may be more resistance than the evil overlords are planning on.
I heard nothing from the lames stream about all these shooters being on drugs. Do the research, they all were. If you want to know what happens when people don't have guns to defend themselves, go to Youtube or somewhere else and watch "The Soviet Story". I am sure some teachers unions in the USSA and the west would want to have this banned and not shown in schools.
Well, a couple things here.
First off, this is 2013. Way back then, the only way to get any message out was through the mainstream media (far as I know, I'm young as hell compared to you old guys :) ). So... the internet and the ability to communicate outside clearly biased mouths *might* make a difference. We'll see.
As far as the fear of authority, I do see what you mean. I have friends who are loathe to try certain activities with me simply because "If we get caught...", bad things with cops. Sure, they don't wanna suffer the consequences (who does), but they deny the experience to avoid anything bad happening. They don't live life to the fullest because some suit with a badge might look their way- not a healthy way to live if you ask me. I do think I'm making headway into slowly changing their ways, though.
Also, your personal story: I don't want to come off like an a-hole (but I will, so here goes), the plural of anecdote =/= data. I don't like cops either, I won't defend them, but surely a significant minority of them must not be deucewads? Again, my youthful naivety is probably showing. Feel free to point it out.
On my own personal note, it would be hard to confront the cops and whatever well-armed force that enforces any real firearm restriction, but remember: there are other ways. That will not talked about here.
So... yeah, g'night. Enjoy the blog, btw.
I dunno', Mark. I know people in Texas, and they are ready to lock and load.
I even know well a somewhat conservative married couple well over 40 who have been talking to their kids, telling them what to do if the parents are killed, fighting the government.
My guess is you live near the East Coast, which is well known to be liberal and anti-gun.
That 5% figure is correct. For many years it has been stated that if 5% of a society are willing to fight, the government cannot survive.
Different things happen under different circumstances. One thing which can really backfire on the government is to make martyrs out of a number of people.
The mayor of a NY city has said he fears another Waco type stand-off. What he does not understand is that if the Feds try that garbage again, they will have incoming in two directions.
One thing you may not fully understand is in times of prosperity people will tolerate a lot of abuse from their governments. Right now, a lot of people do not have prosperity, which changes their attitudes dramatically.
Anonymous age 70
Anon70,
You know I'm from one of the BLUEST of blue states-NJ! I don't live there anymore, but I'm not far away, either.
As to the other guy who asked the big question about being willing to make a violent stand, I don't know. I think the USA, as we have known it, is DONE; we have passed the point of no return WRT our decline, and I don't think that there's anything left saving-not when trash like Jersey Shore & Keeping Up With The Kardashians are hit shows.
So, why am I trying to buy a gun off the record? I already have an old revolver I inherited from my late mother; she inherited it from her parents when they died. Anyway, it's never been registered, and it never will be. That said, I'd like to add to my collection, because I like guns; I think that they're cool.
Why am I trying to buy a gun if I'm not sure if I'll make a stand? One, because I WANT it, damn it! Two, I'd like something extra for home defense. Three, I'd like to have the OPTION of fighting back if so inclined. But, more than anything else, I just want to be LEFT THE FUCK ALONE! I just want to live my life in peace with minimal gov't interference and interaction. One of the Founding Fathers (I believe Jefferson, but I"m not sure) said it best: the gov't that governs best, governs least.
Would I make a stand? I don't know. I'm not afraid of doing so, because we all must die; that said, I don't want to make it in vain, either; I don't want to throw my life away for nothing. That, and I'm not sure if the country can be saved at this point. I mean, shit, we REELECTED The Communist in Chief, for cryin' out loud! What greater evidence do you need of our irredeemable decline?
I hope that this answers your questions and comments. I'm going to feed my kitty some treats now, so good night...
MarkyMark
Let me add other thoughts. One thing different here is Obama made the mistake of thinking he could do stuff by executive order, which is a slap in the face of anyone who believes in the Constitution. He is one step short of declaring himself dictator.
Also, TSA has shown a heavy handed government willing to violate personal rights. This changes the attitude towards the government.
And, I actually predict if Obama steps over the bounds on executive orders, there will be military vehicles moving down Pennsylvania Avenue. When Hitler was declared dictator, he had military support. Obama does not, and military take the Constitution seriously. Big Sis at one time discussed declaring all combat vets to be disarmed. And, other s**t that Obama pulled off against the military.
Um not to forget Obama care which was clearly against the will of a majority of citizens.
No, right now is not a good time to force major changes in gun laws outside the legislative process.
Did you know that in the 20th Century, as a minimum one person was killed every minute, day and night (average, not literally) for the entire century, by their own governments after those governments disarmed them in the name of public safety?
Well, the guns owners know that fact.
Even a Pravda writer has said Americans should not give up their guns as Russians did, or the same thing will happen.
Anonymous age 70
Anon70,
Obama has been FLOUTING the Constitution since he took office! Not only is Obamacare unconstitutional; it was passed in a shady manner. Cap & trade couldn't be passed through Congress, so he implemented it anyway via fiat, courtesy of the EPA. One of the federal circuit courts struck down Obamacare, yet the administration kept implementing it anyway. Another federal court struck down Obama's moratorium on oil drilling, yet he continued it. I could go on, but you get my point. He's ALREADY acting like a dictator! What's to stop him from taking the one, last step?
Henry Makow's site recently had an article saying that all the top brass of the military is compromised, and that they won't do anything to stop him. I'm inclined to agree. WTF didn't they stop him from assuming office, when there are questions as to whether or not he's even a CITIZEN, and thus eligible to hold the office?!
There's the matter of voter fraud, which I've discussed on here recently, and I believe was massive and blatant. Why didn't anyone, especially the Republicans, DO anything to protest this? Is this not acting like a dictator, when he can rub our NOSES in the voter fraud?
I'm well aware of what the 20th Century dictators did to solidify their grip on power; in every case, they disarmed the people first. I think that they'll do so again, and I think that they'll get away with it.
One, when you buy a gun legally and have the background check done, your name is entered into a database. Two, the shop that sells you the gun has you fill out an ATF form 4473, which the shop has to keep as long as they're open; they keep the 4473s in a bound book. The gov't already knows where the guns are, so confiscating them will be easy! Also, as I've said, gun owners in America have allowed the gov't to basically GUT the Second Amendment; the Second Amendment, thanks to the Brady Law, no longer exists. Since it's been gutted, what's to stop the gov't from taking the one, final step? Sorry, but I do not share your optimism.
MarkyMark
Following Anon70's line of thought, another thing idiots like Blumberg don't "get" AT ALL is the number of people in this country that not only are quite willing and able to go toe-to-toe with the Feds, they are absolutely desirous of doing so. The hatred of our federal gov't is growing to scary proportions.
Not me, of course. I'm a coward and a pacifist. And I own no firearms.
For the record.
Off the record...I'm keeping the pantry stocked with popcorn.
"Why didn't anyone, especially the Republicans, DO anything to protest this? Is this not acting like a dictator, when he can rub our NOSES in the voter fraud?"
Because the Republicans, at least the elite ones, are part of the uni party system. The two parties should merge and call themselves 'The Government Party'. Both parties hate the Bill of Rights and anything else that would give us more freedom.
sth_txs,
I'm afraid you're right. What else explains the actions of the GOP leadership to undermine the Tea Party and the new members they sent to Congress?
MarkyMark
It is also possible the "patriots" need a Rosa Parks type incident to bring them out. Someone martyred or something like that. But, I do think a large number of people will respond when/if that does happen. Whereas until recently, that could not be.
I will admit we will see what happens.
As far as generals, they may or may not be in charge, depending upon what happens. I also think military rebellion will also depend upon the Rosa Parks type incident, some major event that rubs their nose in things.
But, I do think there is a limit to how much the people will accept.
Anonymous age 70
The GOP leadership are mostly Progressives, which is why Obama won this time. Large numbers of Republican conservatives simply refused to vote for ObamaII, and stayed home.
The Progressives think they must be liberal to get votes, thus lose true conservatives, thus the election.
Anonymous age 70
Those domestic violence charges stay on the books forever. If the case was dismissed outright you might have been able to go back and file a motion for factual innocence - if your state allows that. There are time limits on this. It's a really big pain to do a factual innocence motion, but if you indeed are innocent and have the facts to support this, then go to it. Unfortunately 10 years is too long to wait. And particularly with domestic violence, since it is so often under-reported, if anyone calls it is now taken very seriously as too many spouses have ended up deceased as a result of inaction.
But instead of legally carrying a weapon, you are procuring one illegally. I can't say that I'm in favor of that. Please go with a weapon which does not require a permit of any kind. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Anon1438,
I understand your point, but I disagree with you; I also disagree with your choice of language. I'll explain.
Number one, the Second Amendment trumps all; according to it and its history (reading the Founding Fathers' quotes WRT the matter), I AM legal to own a gun; so are you IF you're free!
Number Two, since I am legal to own a gun (according to the Second Amendment, not any BS laws that have been passed infringing on it), I am not doing anything wrong; if anything, I am exercising my RIGHTS-rights according to the Constitution of the United States, anyway. Have you read that wondrous document? Have you ever tried to-gasp-UNDERSTAND it?
You know, according to your logic, it was illegal, and therefore wrong, to help the slaves escape; it would have been illegal, and therefore wrong, to help the Jews hide and/or escape in Nazi Germany. There are times when a higher law applies, and we are therefore in the right to disobey any of man's laws...
MarkyMark
If you are serious about this, then travel to a state that does not have such restrictions and visit a gun show with lots of cash. Virginia isn't too far from you. The Nation's Gun Show in Chantilly is in a few weeks. That "gun show loophole" is still open. Look for a guy wandering around with a sign on his back "For Sale" and offer him money.
Properly registering it when you return to your homestate and complying with laws there is on you.
you could also just forego firearmes entirely and instead become an expert with a compound bow. Legal but still gets the job done.
NewReb,
Thanks a lot for the tips! I'll try your advice at the good, local shows coming up.
I have thought about getting a crossbow too. A good size one will drop a deer or other big game; if it'll drop big game, it'll drop unwanted guests too. Best of all, they're SILENT... :)
MarkyMark
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